Tabletop simulator on Kickstarter

This is the place to contribute to the next version of ZunTzu.

Moderators: Ichibrothers, Cambronne, Chobham_1980

paffers
001
Posts: 25
Joined: 28 Sep 2010, 06:09

Post by paffers »

I looked at BG before TTS, and with the limited time I have, had to make an early call on whether I should pursue it.

My brief foray with it made me think it was too complicated, and the community seems tiny, so I did not spend too much effort with it.

Well, thats the impression I got. Maybe I should have asked on here first :D

In answer to your other points :

"I can see where you'd want that while editing. But resizing during play? Adding components out of thin air while playing? Hmm. Might be my focus (war games) speaking, but part of the play can be the component limits, using only what comes in the box."

This, and many other admin type features is 'host only'. But yes great for editing. Only used it 'live' when I ran out of markers for something.

"I'm curious: is there a way to roll dice without physically picking them up and casting them through visual space? Or is it ENTIRELY physics based? "

Physics based, Although, to prevent smashing things over, you can shuffle the dice (shake mouse) and just drop them. Like using a cup, shaking and upturning it sort of thing.

"(With respect) is this really fair? It would take a tremendous amount of time (outside of XML and ZT, admittedly) to chop up all my counter sheets into individual files"

I found an online site where you upload a jpg counter/card sheet, then tell it # rows and columns. I sends back a ZIP of individual jpgs based on the grid. Then, to create a card deck, there is a utility that you drop all these in and it formats then and exports a 'deck' job.

"It's a cool gimmick, but it's attracting "the wrong element," I fear. Lots of griefers. It's not the gimmick that bothers me, it's the kind of community it's attracting."

You cranky old curmudgeon you :D


I hope none of my posts give the impression I hate ZunTzu, or am a salesman for TTS. Truth be told I donated more money to ZT than TTS cost me to buy, and I have had hours and hours of fun in it. Just trying to relate my experience so far in case anyone else is looking at the product.
dulcaoin
Site Admin
Posts: 79
Joined: 26 Aug 2014, 01:30
Location: Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.

Post by dulcaoin »

NOTE: everything in italics below are quotes from me (Joshua).
paffers wrote:I looked at BG before TTS, and with the limited time I have, had to make an early call on whether I should pursue it.

My brief foray with it made me think it was too complicated,
Agreement. Part of convincing people to use software is the look and feel. Part is the learning curve. BGE could use some help in that area, I agree. Admittedly, if you're an author of a module, you dive right in the deep end, the end user right click menu is much less daunting, I'm coming to understand.
paffers wrote: and the community seems tiny,
Yes, but have you read the reviews heruca has gotten? He is ON TOP of his community, and helps wherever he can.
paffers wrote: so I did not spend too much effort with it.
I'm giving it a try because I was invited to do so, and because I want to know how wide and deep that particular pond is [compared to ZunTzu -- I really don't like the look of whatever's floating on Vassal's pond :)]. I think his BRPG is really the application that garners the most respect. And those users are going to be happy with what he's giving them, complicated is part of the cost of entry.
paffers wrote: Well, thats the impression I got. Maybe I should have asked on here first :D
I'm ready to agree (with your initial impressions), though I feel that Battlegrounds is a more logical next step than Tabletop Simulator, as far as look and feel and approach go.

Battlegrounds has even better asset protection than ZunTzu does, for instance. And laying things out in it is SWEET compared to everything else. You can "tile" components and they go under the layout grid (and become one with the background). Or you can "lock" them and they go over it (and become one with the background). Everything is WYSIWYG, and they have a NUDGE function (Joshua runs off to add nudge to the wishlist).
paffers wrote:In answer to your other points :

"I can see where you'd want that while editing. But resizing during play? Adding components out of thin air while playing? Hmm. Might be my focus (war games) speaking, but part of the play can be the component limits, using only what comes in the box."

This, and many other admin type features is 'host only'. But yes great for editing. Only used it 'live' when I ran out of markers for something.
I can't figure out how to change this into a way to change ZunTzu (which may be a goal limited only to me). How do you think ZT could be upgraded to fit in better here? (It does have the supply attribute, which can make counters "spawn" more than one copy if needed, though that has to be arranged by the designer, not the player)
paffers wrote: "I'm curious: is there a way to roll dice without physically picking them up and casting them through visual space? Or is it ENTIRELY physics based? "

Physics based, Although, to prevent smashing things over, you can shuffle the dice (shake mouse) and just drop them. Like using a cup, shaking and upturning it sort of thing.
Maybe he'll add a keystroke, or button. And it will roll them in a die box to prevent physical accidents.
paffers wrote: "(With respect) is this really fair? It would take a tremendous amount of time (outside of XML and ZT, admittedly) to chop up all my counter sheets into individual files"

I found an online site where you upload a jpg counter/card sheet, then tell it # rows and columns. I sends back a ZIP of individual jpgs based on the grid. Then, to create a card deck, there is a utility that you drop all these in and it formats then and exports a 'deck' job.
I have an advantage here. I wrote a script where I define the starting x and y, the size of the counters, and the counts. It marches across the sheet and figures out where to cut them in ZT. If it's off, you change the parameters and re-run the script. It handles counters that change size in the middle of a row, etc.

It has the added advantage of outputting a "section" for each counter. So you can go back and hand-edit the XML if you need to and "tweak" the cuts for individual counters. If you use the row/column (ZunTzu does the work) method, you're only approximating cuts, and have only so much control, with the script + tweaks, you can dial down to individual counter values.
paffers wrote: "It's a cool gimmick, but it's attracting "the wrong element," I fear. Lots of griefers. It's not the gimmick that bothers me, it's the kind of community it's attracting."

You cranky old curmudgeon you :D
One of the best features of ZunTzu is its community, the kind of player it attracts. He's forgiving (partially because he's had to be by necessity :-P), and has a good chance of being a wargamer (at the very least, an advanced board gamer). He is discerning. He is unfortunately not a Mac user, I'd like to see that change some day.
paffers wrote: I hope none of my posts give the impression I hate ZunTzu, or am a salesman for TTS. Truth be told I donated more money to ZT than TTS cost me to buy, and I have had hours and hours of fun in it. Just trying to relate my experience so far in case anyone else is looking at the product.
And I'm not trying to call you out as a shill or advocate. My ulterior motive is to collect more opinions about what ZunTzu needs to improve, and I always think that competition is a good thing, because it drives innovation.

ZunTzu is by no means broken, but the fact that it isn't advancing makes people nervous. They (sorry, *we*) want to see things change, even if the changes are small, as long as the "plot advances." The plot advances, you feel comfortable that the support is there, and it's much more likely that the inevitable sequels will come (to stretch my analogy much further than I should have).

I want to be sure that it's clear that ZunTzu still HAS a community, and interest in it moving forward. If everyone just gives up, then the war is truly lost. :)

-- joshua
Geralt
Posts: 24
Joined: 13 Oct 2013, 00:00

Post by Geralt »

I checked tabletop simulator (but not played full game). To be honest I still prefer ZunTzu :). Tabletop Simulator has more functions (some very usefull), wow effect and is still developed but:
1) I think that 2d play is more practical
2) It is easy to make mess on the table
3) ZunTzu gives me better feeling of playing it like in real life.
4) I think it is not possible to bid secretly (maybe I'm missing something)
5) I would like some additional functions in Tabletop

I would like such program like Tabletop with 2D option with some additional features :).

But this program has potential for sure.

Geralt
Post Reply